| yksehtniycul
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don't play with me 'cause you're playing with fire |
I'm a subtitle purest, however I found Atlus USA's changes to P1 refreshingly compelling. Japan's ultra homogeneous culture has never set well with me personally. Not to mention Masao(Mark) was an extremely annoying and ridiculous character. I think ts even safe to bet, Japanese players would prefer the dolled-up cast of characters. Maki hooking up with a black kid actually makes more sense in Japan, where black kids are prized by young girls and guaranteed popularity. If the lead was really emo, he should dye his hair red! And as an anglo-japanese Eriko, could've been naturally blonde. The original cast just lacks color, even for Japan.
Finally, in fairness, Mark was by no means a racist characture for the period or in retrospect. Though it could've been nice were the axe weapon replaced in suit. Masao was basically a freak carrying an axe in his backpack. Frankly, who really wants to defend that.
« Last Edit: August 28, 2007, 04:23:24 AM by yksehtniycul »
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Logged yksehtniycul has 2094 Posts (+0/-0 Karma) |
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Regardless of my gripes P1 was one of my favorite games. Still, somethings felt forced with the changes. However I actually like how Mark's ethnicality was changed. Face it without him every character would be white. Yet some of the dialogue they gave him was over the top. Mark's relationship to Maki was touching. In the end as characters go the whole cast of Persona 1 alienated me.
Nate was the rich kid that mourned a dying butler, Ellen resembled every girl that was a bitch in my high school, and Brad (I think that is his name,the white kid with sun glasses atop his head) was a complete asshole. I liked the story just fine but the only "hero" I could relate to in the cast was the silent protagonist. Actually now that I think about it compared to the other characters Mark wasn't that bad. At least he had heart. Everyone else was an air head,bully,popularity whore,or a spoiled rich kid. Mark was likely the closest to me in that he wasn't rich,wasn't popular, and had to earn everything. Funny how a deeper reflection of P1 made me come to that revelation.
What can I say? I liked the characters in the other Persona games a lot more. However back then when I had noone to compare the original cast of characters to I suppose it wasn't as big of an issue with me. I'm sorry P3 doesn't have subtitles for those that wanted them but hey, it wasn't my choice and I'm 100% happy with the dub anyway.
« Last Edit: August 28, 2007, 01:37:56 PM by nightsavior »
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Logged nightsavior has 156 Posts (+10/-0 Karma) |
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| yksehtniycul
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don't play with me 'cause you're playing with fire |
There was a lot of wonkey dialog and quirks as I recall. Mark could've started with drumsticks, with the no weapon animation. Then worked up to axes.
Don't f*** with a n*** packing an axe :rambo:
« Last Edit: August 29, 2007, 12:15:59 AM by yksehtniycul »
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Logged yksehtniycul has 2094 Posts (+0/-0 Karma) |
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Well Mark lived in a screwed up world. As I recall in Lunarvale the monsters were not simply in one area. Sure in P3 every once in awhile you'd have a powerful shadow venture outside Tartarus but the way it unfolded most of them stayed in the tower. In Lunarvale the monsters spawned everywhere. It'd be neat to see them Remake P1 and P2 with better voice talent and better game play but I seriously doubt that would happen. The only critique I have about P3 is that it didn't tie into the other games much. Seeing Mark,Ellen, or Nate as teachers would have been funny but cool. The fact your conversation with "Maya" in innocent sin online discounted that the other two games "really happened" sort of annoyed me. It pretty much made you believe they were just works of fiction that unfolded in an mmorpg.
« Last Edit: August 29, 2007, 05:33:24 PM by nightsavior »
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Logged nightsavior has 156 Posts (+10/-0 Karma) |
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| yksehtniycul
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don't play with me 'cause you're playing with fire |
offtopic: What was "innocent sin online"?
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Logged yksehtniycul has 2094 Posts (+0/-0 Karma) |
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| DevilRy
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Being the most important can't be seen in the eyes |
Actually it would have been. You said I was uneducated, yet you couldn't comprehend what I was saying in a post. Thus, you were showing your lack of education. Why do you think you're so much better than us because you like subs over dubs? I never said "Only give dubs, let the art be destroyed by translators!"
Um, so yeah, still not ironic, sorry. IRONY (n) is the use of words to express something other than their original intention. Thus, you continue to prove my point. I also have trouble following your logic: Assuming you are uneducated when you claim to not be somehow makes me uneducated? :footinmou
In any case, that's not what I'm debating. Notice on how that seems to be the only thing anyone seems to have picked up from my posts... 
Though I tend to agree with Tony (that both a dub and sub should've come with it), I disagree with the assumption that we should just accept this as the norm and be glad that we can now have some "emotional connection" to the characters by virtue of them speaking in English. That doesn't make any sense... How can I have a greater emotional connection to the same ten Canadian VAs that they get to do everything? And just because I don't know their names off the top of my head doesn't mean you can slide one over on me, I can recognize voices. In fact I'm very good at recognizing people by their voices and a decade of putting up with shitty dubs has taught me a few things about the way they do business.
To me, it completely detracts from the story, not to mention the simple inability of the English language to be able to convey the same ideas and intonation as in Japanese. Also I've noticed quite frequently with dubs blatant and completely unnecessary dialog changes, usually adding some bullshit North American or British colloquialism to possibly add "a greater emotional connection," like you talked about, but to me comes off as trite and stupid. Personally I just don't see what the big deal is. To me a dub seems unnecessary and a complete waste of time and money. I figure something like Persona 3, especially with a niche PLAYSTATION 2 GAME (coz we all know how much Americans don't like to buy console transition games), I don't really think subtitling it would have really hurt or increased sales (Well, ATLUS USA might've gotten my buck if they would've put the sub in, but cest la vie).
Also, I don't recall making you guys out to be the way you seem to think. All I said was "God bless America," which was really more of a slam at the U.S. for failing us all so miserably in the public school system, which is far from calling you guys "America FUCK YEAH"-ers (though a hilarious movie, btw).
Basically we're all saying the same thing although I still can't understand why anyone on this Earth would watch something dubbed over. Watching [ adultswim ]'s anime night is like auditory torture. 
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Logged DevilRy has 435 Posts (+23/-0 Karma) |
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It was simply a matter of good dubbing vs. bad dubbing. Of course watching dubs on Adult Swim is torture. Noone in there right mind would dispute that especially after watching Naruto dubbed. However Persona 3 was dubbed very well so I had no bone to pick with it.
I don't understand the "America sucks" elitist attitude. Will hearing the same characters speaking in Japanese make my experience more profound? Will I be able to learn from it and speak perfect Japanese by the time I finish a P3 version that is undubbed? In both cases no. The characters will say the exact same phrases only in a different language and do the exact same things. Unless of course I got my hands on Fes that has additional content. I would read sub titles in Fes just to get the extra story goodness.
I don't think it is bad you prefer Subs Devilry but doing so while slamming America seems a bit bias. I'm not extremly patriotic nor do I think "we're da best! Woot!". However America is not all bad. As has been said every nation or country has its own pros and cons. You also seem to be trying to come off as an "intellectual giant". To me that is contracending. Noone really brought up "failing educational systems" and "national elitism" accept you. What those have to do with P3 is anyone's guess.
Appreciate Japan more then anyewhere else? Buy a summer-house there to "really" experience their culture first hand. I'd visit Japan and a few other places too but sadly I don't have that kind of money.
« Last Edit: September 01, 2007, 09:57:03 PM by nightsavior »
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Logged nightsavior has 156 Posts (+10/-0 Karma) |
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No, actually, irony can mean many things. Here is one, since you obviously C&P'd; "A meaning (often contradictory) concealed behind the apparent meaning of a word or phrase."
So, you called me uneducated. But you failed to understand me, and jumped to that conclusion. You calling me uneducated is contradictory as you are uneducated in the first place for not understanding me. Thus, it is ironic.
"Irony usually emphasizes the contrast between the way things are expected to be and the way they actually are"
1. You expect me to be uneducated
2. You are the one that is really uneducated for not understanding my inital post and going on with a jab at America and a jab at dub viewers.
But, whatever, let's end this debate on a damn word. I just had to put my little comeback in there or I wouldn't feel satisfied with myself.
On topic: Dubs are fine. Subs not so much, even if the dub is bad and the voice acting is bad, I'd rather watch dubs.
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Logged Neao has 177 Posts (+13/-0 Karma) |
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| yksehtniycul
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don't play with me 'cause you're playing with fire |
Ah now I'm nostalgic for the oldschool mentality, when anime actually was art, and dubbing was inconceivably blasphemous, and subtitles were accompanied by copious liner notes outlining and explaining all of the nuiances suddlely lost in translation.
On the other hand watching something dubbed on the television surely beats shilling out thousands of dollars on serial anime cassettes. Well, if only adopted content had any merit to begin with anymore.
Wait a few years. Someone will create a translation patch, and hack that ridiculous battle number to play any song from your personal library. PS2 emulation is tightening up wonderfully. Whether or not Atlus deserves your money is up to you.
You can't really fault AtlusUSA for any real reason with the number of conceivable complications I could strum off my fingers and toes. Meanwhile as consolation, you can always lambast the general trend if you want.
editted: I just noticed the original premise of this thread. I'd assumed it was just about dub bashing. I might download that torrent, but I'm not sure how I would play it once I did. I'm assuming a modded console is required, or some manner of device. Any painless suggestions?
« Last Edit: September 02, 2007, 08:29:24 AM by yksehtniycul »
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Logged yksehtniycul has 2094 Posts (+0/-0 Karma) |
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As it started out I think most people were in agreeance dubs and subs are just a personal choice yksehtniycul. It doesn't make one good or bad smart or stupid. If you love linguistics and foreighn languages of course you'll prefer subs. If say you just want to understand the story and not read painfully small text go with dubs.
However at some point Devilry brought up America's failing educational system and called Neao uneducated for prefering dubs. Maybe that wasn't 100% what he was driving at but it came off as a bit elitist. What does subs and dubs have to do with American facism or being intellectual as opposed to uneducated? Ask Devilry I suppose. I still do not get his stance. He brought things into the conversation that strayed from the topic in my personal opinion.
My point is most of any country is going to want stuff in "their language". Yes there are likely a few Japanese interested in western culture that rather play GTA San Andreas without a voice translation and read small kanji at the bottom of the screen for the "authenticity factor" but you better believe most of them would want it dubbed in their native language.
Two things I'd suggest. If they do subs make them a bit bigger. If they are going to do a dub for the love of all that is divine get good voice actors and be sure a decent translator is there to ensure none of the characters say anything wrong or out of place in the series!
I prefer good dubs but I rather watch sub-titles then endure a completly shitty dub. I suppose I sit somewhere in the middle on the issue. As for Atlus it is my personal opinion they deserve my money even if not every game has "sub titles" as an option.
« Last Edit: September 02, 2007, 03:11:39 PM by nightsavior »
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Logged nightsavior has 156 Posts (+10/-0 Karma) |
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| yksehtniycul
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don't play with me 'cause you're playing with fire |
Well, I couldn't say about the connection to fascist creep, other than a Colbert Report esque rejection of all things bookish, also the theme of Bradberry's fascist distopia Farenheit 451. Its a long reach 
If you are a US American, taken in by its compulsory educational standards. And you are unable to read and enjoy subtitles, then your time indoors probably has been somewhat squandered by the state.
I think the dilemma most likely, is once you compromise the integrity of a work of art, it becomes increasingly commodified. Its one thing to second guess the allegiances of the original artists, but by the time a second party like a localization operation comes into the mix, it is clearly a defacement of artistic integrity.
Before I really didn't comprehend the circumstances. I'd assumed being a late cycle title the DVD was probably too packed to fit the original audio tracks in. But apparently they are in there and there is plenty DVD to spare. So it does seem somewhat senseless to not have provided the option. On the other hand, maybe that would've meant paying extra royalties to the original voice talents.
It is actually strange the original audio track remained in the final pressing.
Personally I prefer dubbing in many casual circumstances where my attention is too divided for complete devotion to the screen. Especially foreign documentaries. I generaly prefer foreign lanuage voice tracks, because it's less obvious just how badddd the performance actually is. I would probably prefer many english movies dubbed into martian myself :lurk:
Not to mention, games are notoriously just as bad in the writing department. I also prefer reading a language I can barely understand! I don't think P3 is worth splitting hairs over though. I've heard more complaints about the laughable BGM. I've been told its easier to play muted regardless of the region of your disc. The game looks pretty slick however. I'll admit I'm mildly interested in it. Might try to play that torrent, and import the game if I find myself enjoying it. I'm not sure how other than emulation though, and my best pc wouldn't cut it. I guess I should dl it before the seeds die out.
Btw, why can't people just write Festival rather than FES?
« Last Edit: September 03, 2007, 04:19:17 AM by yksehtniycul »
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Logged yksehtniycul has 2094 Posts (+0/-0 Karma) |
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The music isn't that bad. It's simple music, but it fits with the game. And if you're pirating the game, I won't take your word for a grain of salt on whether or not dubbing is destroying the art.
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Logged Neao has 177 Posts (+13/-0 Karma) |
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I just don't like generalizing . "America's this" " America's that" is a narrow minded tunnel of national discrimination. As I said I'm sure Japanese rather things be dubbed in Japanese unless you have one particular individual into the study of foreign languages and other cultures. I'm into experiencing cultural diversity but I confess it was always hard for me to pick up on other languages. Perhaps if I had been an American whose family moved to Japan I would be able to be bi-lingual with little difficulty. Unfortunately not all of us get to go globe trotting around the world. That is costly to say the least.
The main question in my mind is how is liking "dubbed" an indicator of fascism or being uneducated? Do the French not prefer speaking and hearing French? Isn't it like that anywhere you go? If so why do people scapegoat America for the same faults everyone else has? Most feel a connection with their kindred native language. That is likely why a "dub" holds appeal to certain individuals.
The point I'm trying to make is liking a dub or sub doesn't make someone "superior" over another. A person who believes a preference for either choice is a symbol of being "elite" or "hyper intellectual" needs to have their head examined or get off their high horse.
Lastly I'm going with Neao. If you are "pirating" P3 and not buying it you are "destroying the art" by not contributing to the company that makes said art. After all they need to pay their staff. However if you are not pirating it my rant is not directed at you.
PS: People generally call it "Persona Fes" because that is how it was labeled by Atlus and the gaming media. We are well aware Fes is short for Festival. No-one has to be a brain-surgeon to figure that one out.
« Last Edit: September 03, 2007, 08:25:11 PM by nightsavior »
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Logged nightsavior has 156 Posts (+10/-0 Karma) |
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| yksehtniycul
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don't play with me 'cause you're playing with fire |
I had to personally ask someone what the hell "FES" meant.
As for sub vs dub, it is and should be a circumstantial choice of course. However, in terms of artistic integrity, dubbing should always be the secondary priority. Which is what many people find objectionable.
A major, almost singular, complaint when addressing dubbing. Is often the greatest priority is lipsyncing the dialog. This results in tortured often unlistenible contortions of speech. The most popular Ghost in the Shell movie dub/sub job is an extreme example. Both jobs were orchestrated by the same localization operation. The subtitles are not simply the dubbing script with the original vocals, but are instead a quite literal translation of the original script. The result is the subtitle is a highly intelligent and accurate portrayal of a highly plausible vision of the evolution of modern technology. Where as the dub job, is contemptible by anyone remotely aware of the constraints of contemporary technology or how such devlopments are articulated by people in the know. Not to mention the dub is of general quality, which is regrettibly substandard. Of all the times I've seen this anime in the television listings, only once has it been aired as subtitled.
On the otherhand, the quality of Disney's handlings of Studio Ghibi's productions has been at least of significant calibur to warrant independent viewing along side the originals. Its just a matter of whether a localization effort regards the original work as art versus pure commodity.
Of course, Miyazaki's fair is typically more condusive to dubbing, due to the target audience and minimalistic approach to dialog.
In any case, if it must be insisted that Atlus[&USA] are deserving of your patronage and should be respected as prime artists, then that respect should follow that in the best of all possible worlds, a first priority to subbing would be more placable to all parties.
My general theory however, is by not providing the original vocals, AtlusUSA avoids paying residuals to the original voice talent. AtlusUSA could've removed the original voice files from the US pressings. But instead it appears that someone left them there, so that a simple hack would make their translation of the game available. Perhaps that is a gesture for posterity sake, or perhaps an under the table deal with Chinese parties.
« Last Edit: September 04, 2007, 08:50:11 AM by yksehtniycul »
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Logged yksehtniycul has 2094 Posts (+0/-0 Karma) |
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And if you're pirating the game, I won't take your word for a grain of salt on whether or not dubbing is destroying the art.
I was curious about that as well. But it probably makes as much sense as all the other verbose statements that I lightly skimmed through.
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Logged Jesus Jones has 45 Posts (+10/-0 Karma) |
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