DIGITAL_DEVIL_DATABASE Community Forum

I dont really agree with piracy but since I have a copy of the game on the way I think I should be allowed to download this.

Sounds like a great idea and I would love to play the game with the original jap voices subbed into english.

http://www.mininova.org/tor/843234

that readme is completely retarded

ugh

honestly the english dub is awesome, dont see the point of playing the game with the JP voices.

I think the english voices are not bad, but I would like to play with the original voices, just to see how was them.

You're going to have problems understanding the anime cutscenes because there are no subs whatsoever.

I'd pretty much stress that the dubbing is not bad myself. I think we're also talking about someone who would find any dub to be unacceptable, though lol.

I always am amused by how those that desire these things feel that the want for a subbed version somehow surpasses the desire for a dubbed one. Where were they during the dubbed vs. subbed VHS anime situation before all of that stuff exploded? Even when that was niche, subs weren't exactly a majority preference.

Do they really think a company such as Atlus is going to do a secondary "special" print run so that a couple hundred people (if that) can have a Japanese language version? There's a very large discrepancy between those who will just download something and those who will pay $50+ for something. To some of these people offering only the Japanese track is the way to go, but we're not in Japan (regardless of the game's locale) and it seems as though Sony has some rules about that stuff.

That said it's a pretty cool offering. Personally, however, given that I don't understand Japanese it's pretty hard for me to sit and listen to this and really be like "well they're definitely better voice actors!". If you understand it, why not just buy the Japanese version and read it "the way it was meant to be!" read too? Although that's obviously far less feasible.

Hopefully this will just become a non-existent issue as we move to larger storage mediums. If this still happened on PS3 with Blu-ray or some other system in the future, I think there will be a lot more room for complaint.

I was 100% happy with the "English" translation. Of course if I "was" Japanese I'd prefer the original but I'm not. What perplexes me is "Europeans or Americans" that rant how  the Japanese version rocks so much harder when in reality the quality is the same and the "original voice talent" is roughly equal to the dubs. Now I've played some "dubbed" games that were horrible but Persona 3 shines. The dubbing was great so I don't really understand any bitch fest people would have.

Guess my "Otaku " standing isn't at a perfect ten otherwise I'd wear Kanji covered shirts and lament how everyone in Persona 3 spoke English instead of the "beautiful musical language" of Japan.

In my humble opinion every cultural language is beautiful in its own way. No reason to try to put one culture above another. Every ethnic and national society has both merits and flaws.

Im from the U.K so my version wont be here for a while glad to hear its well dubbed though really looking forward to playing it.

The one game that really put me off dubbing was Final Fantasy Ten it kind of ruins a dramatic scene when a line is really badly delivered.

Guess I wont bother with the undub especially if you cannot sub the cutscenes

The  dubbing in P3 is top notch. I don't say that about just any dubbed game either. The voices for the characters are perfect in my opinion. I can understand dubbing bias in some cases but not when it relates to Persona 3. I wouldn't Fret Jack-frostFTW. You're gonna love it!

Yeah, I'd not get worried either. It's up in the top segment of game voice acting easily to begin with... and from what I've personally heard the voices are pretty good matches to their Japanese originals. Even the weird Mysterious Boy.

Well, Mysterious Boy and Fuuka are up for large debate.

Not really. I find them all fitting.

I prefer either english VA, or no VA at all.  

I don't necessarily dislike Japanese VA, but I am not Japanese, I don't understand Japanese and Japanese VA does absolutely nothing for me.

I am about half way through P3 and the dub is great.  If people are complaining about it then they would probably complain about any dub regardless of its quality.

Well, whether or not you simply just like the voice of Mysterious Boy is not what I was getting at. I think it fits him, but people get a weird vibe from it (which is purposeful, I'm sure). The point was more that it basically sounds extremely similar to the Japanese voice actor, which I imagine is what would be the best to strive for if you want to remain more "true" to the Japanese version.

Fuuka I wasn't too fond of at first, but she kind of warms up to the role as the game wears on I think.

the only voice I'm iffy about is Ken's voice. specially when he says "oh crap" that doesn't fit his shy/timid personality at all, should have been something like "Im really sorry for that"

the rest of the cast is great, yeah at first I wasnt sure about the mysterious boy voice, but it grew on me same Fuuka's

Ken's voice is the same woman that does "Oral" in the Moral Oral Christianity spoof.(either that or they  sound ALOT alike.) What is odder still Ken looks like Oral. lol. I found  that funny but still warmed up to Ken as a character. He does after all sound and act like someone his age. Shinjiro's voice actor  sounds hauntingly similar to Alucard from castlevania sotn. Not sure if it is the same guy but it could be. I had no problems with Fuuka's voice or anyone elses. They fit  the roles. Pharos was creepy but he is supposed to be.

Pretty much.  You didn't watch Pan's Labyrinth dubbed, did you?


Paying effin' 30$  god damned dollars for subbed VHS is what.  Viz especially used to charge upwards of 10$ more than the dubbed versions of the same anime.  Let's be honest here.  Cartoons are a children's medium in North America.  Action cartoons from Japan especially are marketed to children.  The education system in this country being woefully behind as it is, its not surprising that any chance to dumb down easily marketed crap will be taken.  Dubbing dumbs down content.  It will never be a majority preference because the majority is a bunch of A.D.D.'d out Ritalin-children who can barely read.  


No, ATLUS would never do it.  I don't really expect much from the NA branch.  The fact that they release the games at all in America seems kind of surprising to me since I almost never see them at any game store and I can't imagine them doing very well in the American market.  They are just too distinctly Japanese, not to mention a niche game type even in Japan.

However, I would like to say this.  Capcom released Onimusha with both English and Japanese audio tracks, you could even set it so the subtitles would be in Japanese.  I fail to see why this is so difficult for NA releases, or why developers just refuse to do it in the first place.  Maybe I'd have more say if I joined the Atlus boards, but I like to swear too much, not to mention my fringe opinions and lifestyle, plus you have to sign up for some ridiculous BBS system to actually post there, so not for me.


To me its not about feasibility, it's more whether or not you respect artistic integrity.  It's also not about what country is better at acting with their voices, that is a non-issue, because Japanese VAs are just as hackneyed as their Canadian counterparts.  It's about whether or not you want to hear experience something as it was originally intended.  To me it also seems pretty disrespectful to the culture as well.  'Let's take your art/game/movie and edit it to suit our arbitrary tastes and lack of education!'  


I'd say it's not a complaint as much as it is criticism.  Though I think storage capacities currently on DVD-ROMs are sufficient for subtitles tracks.

I don't see dubbing as "dumbing it down" I just see it as  putting it in my native language so I can understand what the hell is going on. Of course I've had Otaku attack me saying "You lazy just learn Japanese!" . Right guys. No problem. (sarcasm)

I do understand dubbing woes though. They tend  to use the same voice actors again and again. Also some of my favorite anime series got dubbed and sounded like crap afterwards.

I just think Persona 3 doesn't  have any  glaring problems in the translation. It still is obviously a game with a setting in modern Japan with Japanese culture. It's not as if Atlus re-did all the characters and put them in an "America school setting" just to make North America happy. I don't think Persona 3 lost any "cultural integrity" just because of the dubbing.

What do people get out of hearing a  language  rambled off they do not understand? Do they think it makes them more worldly or hip? Just curious.

I don't know. I can handle any dub, however bad it may be. I just hate having to read words on the bottom of the screen. It distracts me WAY too much. With DDS, even when it was translated and voiced with good actors, the subtitles still distracted me. I couldn't help my eyes, they just wandered down to the words:P. I try to catch myself on this, cause I focus way too much on the subtitles.

So, however bad a dub is, I still watch it with english voice over. If the creators truly cared that the viewers should "watch it in its original form" they wouldn't let it get dubbed in the first place. Not like dubbing is going to cease anyway, so who the hell cares. Why whine about it.

God bless America... :beaten:

Look, if it takes you more than a split second to read subtitles then the education system has failed you.

Oh, and "putting it in my native language so I can understand what the hell is going on," is definitely dumbing it down.

How did  preferring things in my language become "God bless America and no  place else!". Japanese prefer things in Japanese. Germans rather read German. Hispanics are more  comfortable speaking their native language. So because I prefer my games to be in the language I understand I'm a bigot but everyone else gets to slide? Ok, that makes rational sense. I hate it when people put "America" in their biased replies as a scapegoat. Makes me feel like I'm on trial for shit I had nothing to do with. For example I did not force Atlus to not include sub-titles nor do I eat babies and love everything about the war on terrorism. To judge any person just by their nationality is short sighted and foolish.  

I'd say subtitles may have been a good choice but frankly  I hate squinting at the screen. If the voice actors in  the dubbed version were as bad as say those in the first  Resident Evil game I'd understand the bitch fest. As it stands it was a near  flawless translation.

Sorry I'm an uneducated bigoted hick. I promise the next time you encounter me I'll speak all languages fluently  and be a  social debutante.

What the hell? I said I get distracted by the subtitles. Not that it takes me a while to read them. Even if I read them already, I continue reading it. That's why I said I try to catch myself on that, it annoys the hell out of me. It's like a habit I developed somehow, even though I don't watch with subtitles a lot.

Your inability to understand what I said makes your response ironic.

That and what does  preferring a game dubbed have  to do with America? If I was French I rather have a copy  of Persona  in French. it has nothing to do with thinking "my language" is great. It's just what I grew up with. It's harder to enjoy something when there is a  bit of a communication barrier and since I have bad eyes that need a new prescription for contacts subtitles make it  hard on me. The game is sorta  text heavy as it is without the inclusion of sub-titles.

Persona 3 is very culture  heavy even without people speaking in Japanese. These are kids that go  to events like the festival of masks, attend school 6 days out of the week, and eat sushi instead of pizza. It's not like Atlus changed any cultural aesthetics just to make north America happy.

For people that want to truly get to learn another language they should take private lessons instead of relying on video-games. While rpgs can be educational their main purpose is to be fun.

I don't know. He wasn't making much sense. He just made himself look more idiotic because he responded to something with conviction he read wrong in the first place. I'm going to listen to anything dubbed anyway. So why the hell should I care? Unless dubbing is going to stop, which it never will.

Dude...  You just completely proved my point.  Even if I didn't understand your original post, it wouldn't have been ironic.  You may want to look that one up in the dictionary.

In any case, far be it from me to distract you guys from your love for mediocre crap.  You all assume that I'm demanding something from you or something.  I don't care if you're too blind to read subtitles or have attention deficit issues and text distracts you.  They sound like excuses to me.  It just seems to me that it isn't ridiculous to demand from North American distributors that they don't dub everything, or at least present the option of hearing the original audio track.

And I'm sorry for insinuating that you may be dumb for preferring to watch things dubbed.  Sometimes I get a little bitchy and preachy but seriously, it just seems like a no-brainer to me.

Actually it would have been. You said I was uneducated, yet you couldn't comprehend what I was saying in a post. Thus, you were showing your lack of education. Why do you think you're so much better than us because you like subs over dubs? I never said "Only give dubs, let the art be destroyed by translators!"

Subs and dubs? I don't see how preferring  one over another makes someone lazy or uneducated. In general anyone that enjoys rpgs has a pretty high intelligence.  Wanting to learn  other languages is something that appeals to some but not to others. It has nothing to  do with thinking one's country  is better then another.  I don't know why this turned into a thread of national bias and random slamming. Nowhere did Neao,Tony,or I say "America fuck  yeah!" We just commented that the "dubbed" version of Persona 3 was exceptionally well done. Is that some type of fascism?

Well, personally, none of my point had to do with intelligence or anything else . I watch foreign films on a regular basis, it's not really a difficult thing.
 
Yet, you have to admit that the average person has far more of an emotional connection with their own language for a variety of reasons. I don't know Japanese, so what I get out of that specially in a video game (as opposed to a film with full facial reactions and body language) in that language is simply not as strong as what I will get out of it in English. Even here, direct comparison of a 2 hour movie to a 80 hour game is pretty difficult... particularly combined with a novel's worth of text. It just forms more of a "comfort zone".
 
For me, most of this comes down to company choices and simply that if the choice has to be made the average company is going to realize that the average person is most comfortable with their own language. This is true of any country. Japanese games have English or French characters speaking Japanese, they translate English games into their own languages. Certainly there are exceptions on both sides. In Japan's examples should one say "God Bless Japan!"?
 
As small as Atlus is, every one knows they want to sell as many copies as possible. It seems clear that 1.) Sony expects English language in their games and 2.) something prevented Atlus from putting both in here. They've done both before, Disgaea is an example of that.
 
Assuming they cannot do both, a US company publishing a game in the US is simply going to go with an English only dub as opposed to a Japanese only dub. I certainly would prefer to have the choice, but a company is never going to go with Japanese only in any country other than Japan if they want to try to appeal to the mass market. And considering they did an exceptional job with it, the implication by the creator of this patch that anything else simply "sucks" by default is, in my opinion, at least as short sighted and oblivious as someone wanting only extreme English localizations (I've read reviews wishing even the names were Americanized, which I'm not supportive of).
 
Doesn't mean I just want English or I just want Japanese. It doesn't mean I expect companies to appeal to my non-existent "ENGLISH RULES FUCKING FOREIGNERS!" mindset either and do nothing else. It just means from a business perspective I certainly understand the reasonings for going with the former here if they're not going to (or able to do) do both of them. Both is definitely the best way to go, I would say.
 
Beyond that though, people can prefer what they want to and I do think this was a cool thing to do. I just don't think the "dubs always suck!" mindset is necessarily smart, but neither is the "subs always suck!" mindset either lol.

Also dubbed or not Japan got Fes and we didn't. I know it wasn't entirely intentional but still when you are a "westerner fan" aching for the  additional content you feel like you got the  shaft and the Japanese are giggling while ranting "Japan fuck yeah! We get additional content and the western countries can kiss our asses now!"  I'm not ungrateful mind you. We were lucky to get P3 in the first place considering all the controversial red tape it had to surpass when information on it first leaked out.

Tony is right about the language thing. When I hear characters with good voice talent behind them speaking in my dialect I feel like I'm more drawn into the story despite the obvious cultural differences portrayed in the game. If it was all spoken in Japanese I'd have to squint to read sub titles and add that text atop the already huge amounts of text throughout the story. Due to having to concentrate extra hard the game would not be nearly as enjoyable to me. Besides like I said the game is obviously "Japan related" to the max regardless of what language is spoken so I do not see how the P3 dub makes it less "as it was meant  to be experienced!"

Be grateful they didn't completely revamp some of the characters and  change a lot of cultural symbolism like they did in Persona Revelations.

It's funny how years ago in Persona Revelations, ATLUS, even changed some character's skin tone to black just so it would look Americanized, while today Persona 3 even got honorings such as Senpai, San, Kun, etc.

I don't think people had a problem with Mark being black. I think the problem was Atlus over-did the "stereo-types" associated with black people to the point Mark came off as a blatant racial slur . I heard his Japanese counter-part in the unchanged version of Revelations was less annoying.

Regardless it was smart of Atlus not to change any cultural atmosphere in P3. It would have been lame if the characters ate pizza instead of sushi,went to school only 5 days a week, and attended church while spouting the national anthem. I get the feeling a Persona game set in the heartland of America would suck unless it was in a liberal city like  New York or somewhere in California.

If Persona 3 had an awful dub I'd be the  first to rant but it didn't and the characters despite speaking in English still acted like teenagers from Japan. Nothing was lost in the translation save for the additional material we didn't get that is in Persona Fes. (short  for Festival.)

I'm a subtitle purest, however I found Atlus USA's changes to P1 refreshingly compelling. Japan's ultra homogeneous culture has never set well with me personally. Not to mention Masao(Mark) was an extremely annoying and ridiculous character. I think ts even safe to bet, Japanese players would prefer the dolled-up cast of characters. Maki hooking up with a black kid actually makes more sense in Japan, where black kids are prized by young girls and guaranteed popularity. If the lead was really emo, he should dye his hair red! And as an anglo-japanese Eriko, could've been naturally blonde. The original cast just lacks color, even for Japan.

Finally, in fairness, Mark was by no means a racist characture for the period or in retrospect. Though it could've been nice were the axe weapon replaced in suit. Masao was basically a freak carrying an axe in his backpack. Frankly, who really wants to defend that.

Regardless of my gripes P1 was one of my favorite games. Still, somethings felt forced with the changes. However I actually like how Mark's ethnicality was changed. Face it without him every character would be white. Yet some of the  dialogue they gave him was over the top. Mark's relationship  to Maki was touching. In the end as characters go the whole cast of Persona 1 alienated me.

Nate was the rich kid that mourned a dying butler, Ellen resembled every girl that was a bitch in my high school, and Brad (I think that is his name,the white kid with sun glasses atop his head) was a complete asshole. I liked the story just fine but the only "hero" I could relate to in the cast was the silent  protagonist. Actually now that I think about it compared to the other characters Mark wasn't that bad. At least he had heart. Everyone else was an air head,bully,popularity whore,or a spoiled rich kid. Mark was likely the closest to me in that he wasn't rich,wasn't popular, and had to  earn everything. Funny how a deeper reflection of P1 made me come to that revelation.

What can I say? I liked the characters in the other Persona games a lot more. However back then when I had noone to compare the  original cast of characters to I suppose it wasn't as big of an issue with me. I'm sorry P3 doesn't have subtitles for those that wanted them but hey, it wasn't my choice and I'm 100% happy with the dub  anyway.

There was a lot of wonkey dialog and quirks as I recall. Mark could've started with drumsticks, with the no weapon animation. Then worked up to axes.

Don't f*** with a n*** packing an axe :rambo:

Well Mark lived in a screwed up  world. As  I recall in Lunarvale the monsters were not simply in one  area. Sure in P3 every once in awhile you'd have a powerful shadow venture outside Tartarus but  the way it unfolded most of them  stayed in the tower. In Lunarvale the monsters spawned everywhere. It'd be neat to see them Remake P1 and P2 with better voice talent and better game play but I seriously doubt that would happen. The only critique I have about P3 is that it didn't tie into the other games much. Seeing Mark,Ellen, or Nate as teachers would have been funny but cool. The fact your conversation with "Maya" in innocent sin online discounted that the other two games "really happened" sort of annoyed me. It pretty much made  you believe  they were just works  of fiction that unfolded in an mmorpg.

offtopic: What was "innocent sin online"?

Um, so yeah, still not ironic, sorry.  IRONY (n) is the use of words to express something other than their original intention.  Thus, you continue to prove my point.  I also have trouble following your logic: Assuming you are uneducated when you claim to not be somehow makes me uneducated? :footinmou

In any case, that's not what I'm debating.  Notice on how that seems to be the only thing anyone seems to have picked up from my posts... :read:

Though I tend to agree with Tony (that both a dub and sub should've come with it), I disagree with the assumption that we should just accept this as the norm and be glad that we can now have some "emotional connection" to the characters by virtue of them speaking in English.  That doesn't make any sense... How can I have a greater emotional connection to the same ten Canadian VAs that they get to do everything?  And just because I don't know their names off the top of my head doesn't mean you can slide one over on me, I can recognize voices.  In fact I'm very good at recognizing people by their voices and a decade of putting up with shitty dubs has taught me a few things about the way they do business.  

To me, it completely detracts from the story, not to mention the simple inability of the English language to be able to convey the same ideas and intonation as in Japanese.  Also I've noticed quite frequently with dubs blatant and completely unnecessary dialog changes, usually adding some bullshit North American or British colloquialism to possibly add "a greater emotional connection," like you talked about, but to me comes off as trite and stupid.  Personally I just don't see what the big deal is.  To me a dub seems unnecessary and a complete waste of time and money.  I figure something like Persona 3, especially with a niche PLAYSTATION 2 GAME (coz we all know how much Americans don't like to buy console transition games), I don't really think subtitling it would have really hurt or increased sales (Well, ATLUS USA might've gotten my buck if they would've put the sub in, but cest la vie).

Also, I don't recall making you guys out to be the way you seem to think.  All I said was "God bless America," which was really more of a slam at the U.S. for failing us all so miserably in the public school system, which is far from calling you guys "America FUCK YEAH"-ers (though a hilarious movie, btw).

Basically we're all saying the same thing although I still can't understand why anyone on this Earth would watch something dubbed over.  Watching [ adultswim ]'s anime night is like auditory torture. :fush:

It was simply a  matter of good dubbing vs. bad dubbing. Of course watching dubs on Adult Swim is torture. Noone in there right mind would dispute that especially after watching  Naruto dubbed. However Persona 3 was dubbed very well so I had no bone to pick with it.

I don't understand the "America sucks" elitist attitude.  Will hearing the same characters speaking in Japanese make my experience more profound? Will I be able to learn from it and speak perfect Japanese by the time I finish a P3  version that is undubbed? In both cases no. The characters will say the exact same phrases only in a different language and do the exact same things. Unless of course I got my hands  on Fes that has  additional content. I would read sub titles in Fes just to get the extra story goodness.

I don't think it is bad you prefer Subs Devilry but doing so while slamming America  seems a bit bias. I'm not extremly patriotic nor do I think  "we're da best! Woot!". However  America is not all bad. As has been said every nation or country has its own pros and cons. You also seem to be trying to  come off as an "intellectual giant". To me that is contracending. Noone really brought up "failing educational systems" and "national elitism" accept you. What those have to  do with P3 is anyone's guess.

Appreciate Japan more then anyewhere else? Buy a summer-house there to "really" experience their  culture first hand. I'd  visit Japan and a few other places too but sadly I don't have that kind of money.

No, actually, irony can mean many things. Here is one, since you obviously C&P'd; "A meaning (often contradictory) concealed behind the apparent meaning of a word or phrase."

So, you called me uneducated. But you failed to understand me, and jumped to that conclusion. You calling me uneducated is contradictory as you are uneducated in the first place for not understanding me. Thus, it is ironic.

"Irony usually emphasizes the contrast between the way things are expected to be and the way they actually are"
1. You expect me to be uneducated
2. You are the one that is really uneducated for not understanding my inital post and going on with a jab at America and a jab at dub viewers.

But, whatever, let's end this debate on a damn word. I just had to put my little comeback in there or I wouldn't feel satisfied with myself.

On topic: Dubs are fine. Subs not so much, even if the dub is bad and the voice acting is bad, I'd rather watch dubs.

Ah now I'm nostalgic for the oldschool mentality, when anime actually was art, and dubbing was inconceivably blasphemous, and subtitles were accompanied by copious liner notes outlining and explaining all of the nuiances suddlely lost in translation.

On the other hand watching something dubbed on the television surely beats shilling out thousands of dollars on serial anime cassettes. Well, if only adopted content had any merit to begin with anymore.

Wait a few years. Someone will create a translation patch, and hack that ridiculous battle number to play any song from your personal library. PS2 emulation is tightening up wonderfully. Whether or not Atlus deserves your money is up to you.

You can't really fault AtlusUSA for any real reason with the number of conceivable complications I could strum off my fingers and toes. Meanwhile as consolation, you can always lambast the general trend if you want.

editted: I just noticed the original premise of this thread. I'd assumed it was just about dub bashing. I might download that torrent, but I'm not sure how I would play it once I did. I'm assuming a modded console is required, or some manner of device. Any painless suggestions?

As it started out I think most people were in agreeance dubs and subs are just a personal choice yksehtniycul. It doesn't make one good or bad smart or stupid. If you love linguistics and foreighn languages of course you'll prefer subs. If say you just want to understand the story and not read painfully small text go with dubs.

However at some point Devilry brought up America's failing educational system and called Neao uneducated for  prefering dubs. Maybe that wasn't 100% what he was driving at but it came off as a bit elitist. What does subs and dubs have to do with American facism or being intellectual as opposed to uneducated? Ask Devilry I suppose. I still do not get his stance. He brought things into the conversation that strayed from the topic in my personal opinion.

My point is most of any country is going to want stuff in "their  language". Yes there are likely a few Japanese interested in western culture that rather play GTA San Andreas without a voice translation and read small kanji at the bottom of the screen for the "authenticity  factor" but you better believe most of them would want it dubbed in their native language.

Two things I'd suggest. If they do subs make them a bit bigger. If they are going to do a dub for the love of all that is divine get good voice actors and be sure a decent translator is there to ensure none of the characters say anything  wrong or out of place in the series!

I prefer good dubs but I rather watch sub-titles then endure a completly shitty dub.  I suppose I sit somewhere in  the middle on the  issue. As for Atlus it is  my personal opinion they deserve my money even if not every game has "sub titles" as an option.

Well, I couldn't say about the connection to fascist creep, other than a Colbert Report esque rejection of all things bookish, also the theme of Bradberry's fascist distopia Farenheit 451. Its a long reach :read: :axeman:

If you are a US American, taken in by its compulsory educational standards. And you are unable to read and enjoy subtitles, then your time indoors probably has been somewhat squandered by the state.

I think the dilemma most likely, is once you compromise the integrity of a work of art, it becomes increasingly commodified. Its one thing to second guess the allegiances of the original artists, but by the time a second party like a localization operation comes into the mix, it is clearly a defacement of artistic integrity.

Before I really didn't comprehend the circumstances. I'd assumed being a late cycle title the DVD was probably too packed to fit the original audio tracks in. But apparently they are in there and there is plenty DVD to spare. So it does seem somewhat senseless to not have provided the option. On the other hand, maybe that would've meant paying extra royalties to the original voice talents.

It is actually strange the original audio track remained in the final pressing.

Personally I prefer dubbing in many casual circumstances where my attention is too divided for complete devotion to the screen. Especially foreign documentaries. I generaly prefer foreign lanuage voice tracks, because it's less obvious just how badddd the performance actually is. I would probably prefer many english movies dubbed into martian myself :lurk:

Not to mention, games are notoriously just as bad in the writing department. I also prefer reading a language I can barely understand! I don't think P3 is worth splitting hairs over though. I've heard more complaints about the laughable BGM. I've been told its easier to play muted regardless of the region of your disc. The game looks pretty slick however. I'll admit I'm mildly interested in it. Might try to play that torrent, and import the game if I find myself enjoying it. I'm not sure how other than emulation though, and my best pc wouldn't cut it. I guess I should dl it before the seeds die out.

Btw, why can't people just write Festival rather than FES?

The music isn't that bad. It's simple music, but it fits with the game. And if you're pirating the game, I won't take your word for a grain of salt on whether or not dubbing is destroying the art.

I just don't like generalizing .  "America's this"  " America's that" is a narrow minded tunnel of national discrimination. As I said I'm sure Japanese rather things be dubbed in Japanese unless you have one particular individual into the study of foreign languages and other cultures. I'm into experiencing cultural diversity but I confess it was always hard for me to pick up on other languages. Perhaps if I had been an American whose family moved to Japan I would be able to be bi-lingual with little difficulty. Unfortunately not all of us get to go globe trotting around the world. That is costly to say the least.

The main question in my mind is how is liking "dubbed" an indicator of fascism or being uneducated? Do the French not prefer speaking and hearing French? Isn't it like that anywhere you go? If so why  do people scapegoat America for the same faults everyone else has? Most feel a connection with their kindred native language. That is likely why a "dub" holds appeal to certain individuals.

The point I'm trying to make is liking a dub or sub doesn't make someone "superior" over another. A person who believes a preference for either choice is a symbol of being "elite" or  "hyper intellectual" needs to have their head examined or get off their high horse.

Lastly I'm going with Neao. If you are "pirating" P3 and not buying it you are  "destroying the art" by not contributing to the company that makes said art. After all they need to pay their staff. However if you are not pirating it my rant is not directed at you.

PS: People generally call it "Persona Fes" because that is how it was labeled by Atlus and the gaming media. We are well aware Fes is short for Festival. No-one has to be a brain-surgeon to figure that one out.

I had to personally ask someone what the hell "FES" meant.

As for sub vs dub, it is and should be a circumstantial choice of course. However, in terms of artistic integrity, dubbing should always be the secondary priority. Which is what many people find objectionable.

A major, almost singular, complaint when addressing dubbing. Is often the greatest priority is lipsyncing the dialog. This results in tortured often unlistenible contortions of speech. The most popular Ghost in the Shell movie dub/sub job is an extreme example. Both jobs were orchestrated by the same localization operation. The subtitles are not simply the dubbing script with the original vocals, but are instead a quite literal translation of the original script. The result is the subtitle is a highly intelligent and accurate portrayal of a highly plausible vision of the evolution of modern technology. Where as the dub job, is contemptible by anyone remotely aware of the constraints of contemporary technology or how such devlopments are articulated by people in the know. Not to mention the dub is of general quality, which is regrettibly substandard. Of all the times I've seen this anime in the television listings, only once has it been aired as subtitled.

On the otherhand, the quality of Disney's handlings of Studio Ghibi's productions has been at least of significant calibur to warrant independent viewing along side the originals. Its just a matter of whether a localization effort regards the original work as art versus pure commodity.

Of course, Miyazaki's fair is typically more condusive to dubbing, due to the target audience and minimalistic approach to dialog.

In any case, if it must be insisted that Atlus[&USA] are deserving of your patronage and should be respected as prime artists, then that respect should follow that in the best of all possible worlds, a first priority to subbing would be more placable to all parties.

My general theory however, is by not providing the original vocals, AtlusUSA avoids paying residuals to the original voice talent. AtlusUSA could've removed the original voice files from the US pressings. But instead it appears that someone left them there, so that a simple hack would make their translation of the game available. Perhaps that is a gesture for posterity sake, or perhaps an under the table deal with Chinese parties.

I was curious about that as well.  But it probably makes as much sense as all the other verbose statements that I lightly skimmed through.

:yarr: :yarr: :yarr: :yarr: :yarr: :yarr: :yarr: :yarr: :yarr: :yarr: :yarr: :yarr:

True  sometimes when lips move slower or faster then the words spoken I smile and chuckle. It reminds me of old martial arts films that got very bad dubs. It really wasn't that bad with P3 though. My next question is how does dubbing P3 decrease the artistic integrity yet "pirating it" is a noble endeavor? Maybe no one really has pirated the game that participated in this debate but it has been thrown around at least as a joke.

My argument is besides for dubbing the game with actual good voice actors everything else retained  the artistic flavor of Japanese Anime and Japanese culture . Nothing beyond dubbing the game was changed to make it more European or American friendly. Do you really think the artists,composers,and programmers rolled over and sold out??  Come on  the game is part interactive dating/life simulation and part rpg. That is obviously very "Japanese" as far as I'm concerned. Add  that to the fact they say "Senpai" a lot,go on field trips to important Japanese land-marks, and eat foods common in their homeland has me believe the game is 100% authentic dub or sub.

Lastly it is strange  you went to great lengths to say  how you liked many of the changes done in P1 and yet now you  are arguing the "artistic integrity" of subs and questioning if P3 is worth paying for because a "sub titles" option was not included. Frankly I don't get your point but to any people that pirate the game without paying for it you are not supporting Atlus's artistic vision or their success anyway so why get in a lengthy self righteous rant about how dubs are the evilest thing since possessed demonic toys?

Why not just say...

"I like sub  titles, they're tight but just because you don't like sub titles  doesn't mean I'm going to debate you into the  ground for your choice! Let's stop arguing and discuss something more interesting without bringing up failing educational systems,under the table third parties,conspiracies,national bias,and fascism!"

Can't  we just get  along?????

I spoke only to dubbing in general. I haven't played P3. If I do I will have to import it. That costs a lot of money. So I'd rather try it out first. That torrent could be a way to do that. But I'm unfamiliar with ways to trick the PS2 without modding. It has been a fairly successful console in that respect.

As for lipsyncing. Obviously, the moment you are choosing dialog based on whether or not it matches lips speaking a foreign language, it should be easily understandible why that process produces particularly foul writing and voicing. Personally I don't mind dubbing in many instances, but I'd prefer lipsyncing to be a nonpriority, as said in traditional Honk Kong action flics.

Generally I prefer subtitles when watching something attentively, and dubbing when only watching casually. I like the TCM channel's policy of showing dubs during primetime, then subtitled encores later that night. I'm sure if you asked TCM, it would say its a matter of artistic integrity.

Well, the anime scene is not too many, so I don't think the lipsynching is a priority by the staff. They don't want to recreate the anime scene again right ? ^^;
Agreed, though I lol'd when I hear Junpei said 'Yuka-tan' :D
They've done a really good job you know >_>; I never heard a dub with -Chan or -senpai before.

Sub titles may help "artistic integrity" for certain films. For example with the martial arts epics sub titles are better to me  personally overall. However as Kryuzei said P3 is mainly a game with only a few "full anime cut scenes" here and there. I think perhaps some people believe it is an impossible feat for the dub to get everything right but over the years certain dubbing standards "have" improved.

Whereas one can argue the lack of spoken authentic language can hurt the art the same  can be said of sub titles. They're little black boxes filled with text and instead of  focusing on the animation you are leaning in and concentrating to read what is being said before it switches over to another scene. So in theory you're racing against time, trying to cram reading everything that pops up in fear you'll miss something important yet in doing so you may miss a lot of the visual elements. I did have that trouble when I watched my favorite movies subbed. Some I had to watch twice because the subs went by too fast or my eyes drifted to the action and away from the text. Also it should  be noted Anime and movies have a history of getting bad "sub titles" too.

The best thing to do is having both a dub version and sub titles but because I never worked in a game or animation studio I do not know how difficult it is to include both. Regardless P3 has gotten great reviews overall so rpg lovers must think it has a pretty  high level of expression,originality, and artistic quality. Of the people I know that have P3 very few have complained about the dub. Also it seems like a few of those people with the "outcries of rage" have not even played the game yet themselves. For them specifically I ask how do you know if the dub is abysmally bad if you haven't gone through the game?

It really is preferential, what I was objecting to is that the preferences of others seem to take priority over the preferences of the relatively fewer.  I'm also unsure of how pirating something somehow disqualifies you from value-judging the artistic merit of a given thing, but the logic of people who "lightly skim overly verbose" posts on a board of people discussing their OPINIONS doesn't really concern me.

I think we're all just agreeing to disagree here and perceiving differences of opinion as personal attacks.  Although I just had to address this:

I *did* understand your original post and you still have yet to explain how exactly commenting on my own country's education system and dub viewers make me uneducated?  In fact, all I said was, and rather off-handishly I might add, "the education system has failed you."  Which ISN'T even calling you uneducated in the first place.  In fact, I went on to say how it's failed all of us (and continues to do so), so you aren't the only one.  If anything you completely misunderstood my meaning and took it as a personal attack against you, when really it was intended as a generalized comment about current events in our nation, making it actually ironic that we're even having this conversation.

Also, the way Night Savior describes subtitles sounds more like Closed Captioning, which is designed for the hearing impaired.  Most subtitled movies/shows have white or yellow text, which in the case of wide-screen movies will often appear below the main image in the letterboxing and are usually quite legible and often much larger than necessary to accommodate those with sight problems.  Although I can't really speak from experience since I have perfect vision, I find it much more difficult to read black on white text that appears on the computer screen for extended periods.

DevilRy, I was just arguing for the sake of arguing. But I had to come back to your insult towards a country I live in. I wouldn't have really taken it as far as I did, but for some reason I just wanted to. Let's stop trying to understand what we misunderstood of each other. It's honestly just going in circles and no doubt readers get pissed when reading this thread.

Pirating, in the first place, shows that you don't care about the art. You discredit any hard work, time that was put into it and creative design to just get the fun of the result. That alone should disqualifiy any opinion you have on the subject.

Forgot about this topic, lol :buh:

As an artist myself I actually feel kind of insulted/beat down by the system in place which basically forces you to make a living from your talents (i.e. art/design/illustration/whathaveyou) through third party middle-management.  So I heartily disagree with the assumption that just because I didn't actually purchase something from a vendor (who point in fact WILL take a cut from the creator's/s' overall share) I somehow disrespect the work itself.  By your own logic you'd have to buy the original Japan region disc to be able to appreciate it yourself, so your argument really doesn't hold much water.  It's unclear to me these days how much the creators of any given artistic project even get from the overall profits of the art in question.  

In my personal view, if something I had done, say a comic, that was translated into another language, I'd rather have my foreign readers read it in the original English, and if it was unavailable to them I would have no problem with them downloading it and would most likely encourage it.

the dubbed is nice....but japanese is still better in some case...
esspecially when in the fighting scene

http://www.booktv.org/program.aspx?ProgramId=9561&SectionName=&PlayMedia=Yes :yarr:

I eventually did manage to download / burn that patched image. Was pretty fun until my PS2 died (probably to some extent due to the slide card business)

I'm glad I "pirated" it though, cause as good as it was, I don't think Atlus deserves my money after totally copping out on the non-character Personae. Fuck em I say :yarr:


Though I guess if I saw a FES complete import on ebay for 40$ or less I'd probably pick it up. Guess I'll have to wait till I get around to modding my PS3 to see the rest of this one. There is a mod which should do the trick for SwapMagic and not damage the drive in any way.

Yeah, english voices are good but Japanese voices bring out the true originality of the game plus it can help you learn the language. So thats 2 good challenges. Playing a video game and learning to speak Japanese. Thats like with me not only an SMT fan but also a hardcore MGS fan. I would love to play MGS1 and MGS4 in Japanese. Basicaly I guess you can call me a Japanophile.

Afaik, Metal Gear Solid has never had a Japanese vocal track (though I can't personally comment on the new one, 4)

As far as I know, there was a version of MGS1 with the Japanese voices. And it was on both, a game and a demo of Metal Gear Solid.

Plus, Japan's PlayStation Network store is selling MGS1 in Japanese format. And I agree with Emilio, it does in both the demo and the real game, and I've played the demo of that and I currently own the demo and the real game of MGS4. The demo of MGS4 has japanese voices. Plus, heres a secret; if you set your PlayStation 3 to Japanese you can type and have your character in Metal Gear Online speak Japanese. However, you cannot play against Japan since online mode for america is restricted to america only. But if you want to play against the Japanese either buy the Japanese Metal Gear Online disc or the Japanese MGS4.

Yeah! I've played the Demo of MGS1 a long, long time ago, that was how I get into that franchise, but in the end it was my brother who get really deep in the MGS franchise while I was getting myself into Megaten :tongue:

lol I'm into both more than any other game series. Although I kinda want to get into the Yakuza series. Any game of Japanese origin I'd play. None of this Crash Bandicoot and Ratchet and Clank crap.

If anyone is still reading this and is getting the FES version as well, the cutscenes have been subbed for your FULL enjoyment.

I hate the fact I am FORCED to have the crappy English voices, I don't have a choice. It's either crap or nothing. I do like NIS for giving me a CHOICE, despite the fact their translations are worse than Atlus'.

Can someone link me to a nice FES undub torrent paleaze...

I don't think I'll ever be able to rationally afford to import FES the way things are looking for it on ebay, and I've decided not to play the non-FES game any further (for want of the FES appendages)