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| yksehtniycul
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don't play with me 'cause you're playing with fire |
I haven't gotten far into Giten. It's sprites tend to be more naked than the other titles, but I think that is pretty appropriate for Devils in general.
One reason I haven't played it, is the graphics drivers on the PC I was going to play it on seem to automatically mipmap the textures, and I can't disable that with that driver set, so the sprites look really bad (well I'm assuming the game wouldn't have shipped that way)
I'm more likely to play the PC-98 version once I start playing PC-98 games (still working on 88)
Personally I think the original anime is by far all around the best piece of actual art to come out of the Megaten lineage. All of the themes just gel the way good art should. As does the Megaten2 game. Frankly I think Megaten could've been way cooler if it had continued down the line with this sort of atmosphere, rather than being constantly confused about what it represents. At the least I wish some strain of Megaten would've respected it's roots. I think Giten probably does that better than any of the Atlus offerings. I'm a little curious what the business relationships surrounding Giten were like I gotta admit.
Btw, most of Japan's pornographic titles appeared on the PC88/98/Engine platforms. Like PC games here in the states, there were no content authorities or hardware licensing deals afaik for these platforms.
http://www.h4.dion.ne.jp/~kakumei/megaten.JPG
« Last Edit: September 29, 2008, 01:42:57 AM by yksehtniycul »
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Logged yksehtniycul has 2094 Posts (+0/-0 Karma) |
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| DevilRy
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Being the most important can't be seen in the eyes |
I dunno, they always seemed rather generic to me.
From what I've read Gigaten is supposed to suffer from some major graphics issues that the Windows version didn't really fix.
Where did you get decades old Japanese PCs from anyway? Let alone the game itself... Japanese PC games are notoriously expensive and hard to track down.
As far as the best art to come out of the Megaten series... I can't agree with you that Giten does it better, that's for sure - it's amateurish in content and style to me. I've never found anime-style pornography to be particularly compelling either, especially when it involves dismemberment. Ultimately that kind of think just strikes me as silly and just distasteful and not in the good John Waters-way, the creepy Japanese subway butt toucher-way.
Kaneko has these oddball sensibilities that really sell me on his art and always has. What ultimately sets him apart from other designers though is that he eschews the contemporary anime/manga-styles that seemingly every other Japanese artist in the field seems to be unable to break free from. Maybe he doesn't give enough cred to the originals, you may be right, but I don't really care too much because I don't really think they looked that great to begin with. The Digital Devil Story anime was pretty good but also fairly standard for the period.
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Logged DevilRy has 435 Posts (+23/-0 Karma) |
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| yksehtniycul
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don't play with me 'cause you're playing with fire |
I dunno, they always seemed rather generic to me.
From what I've read Gigaten is supposed to suffer from some major graphics issues that the Windows version didn't really fix.
Where did you get decades old Japanese PCs from anyway? Let alone the game itself... Japanese PC games are notoriously expensive and hard to track down.
You just emulate it. There was a place you could download the cd iso for the Windows version. Probably still there, but I don't know the link. Graphics are graphics, they're fine by me. I think timing was more of an issue with the Windows version. Something about it either didn't sync with the graphics interface or wasn't programmed to sync with the real-time clock, so it might run too fast on contemporary machines. Like I said, I have what appears to be mipmapping issues, but most graphics drivers should let you disable that from the control panel. I could pop it into this machine right now I guess and try it. Also I think it get's stuck if your computer isn't totally Japanese locale and all... which you'll basically need to be anyway if you wanna read it.
As far as the best art to come out of the Megaten series... I can't agree with you that Giten does it better, that's for sure - it's amateurish in content and style to me. I've never found anime-style pornography to be particularly compelling either, especially when it involves dismemberment.
I didn't say the production values were amazing, though games are released every day with much worse art (though perhaps more polished)
Thematically however, I think I prefer some straight "Eroguro" (think like the anime) to all the kid friendly in tone but with the odd subversively messed up themes interjected here in there. I love all the balls to the wall evil shit and people dying. That's life, when demons invade people are gonna die, like war. It should be more sexual as well I think. I'm fine with all the power-rangers and after-school teen specials, but give me at least one straight up series at least 
Ultimately that kind of thing just strikes me as silly and just distasteful and not in the good John Waters-way, the creepy Japanese subway butt toucher-way.
I think you miss understand the PC-98 library. Giten is from those pictures extremely tame for a PC-98 title and the PC-98 audience. I don't think it's any more distasteful than a sex scene in an R rated film.
Kaneko has these oddball sensibilities that really sell me on his art and always has. What ultimately sets him apart from other designers though is that he eschews the contemporary anime/manga-styles that seemingly every other Japanese artist in the field seems to be unable to break free from. Maybe he doesn't give enough cred to the originals, you may be right, but I don't really care too much because I don't really think they looked that great to begin with. The Digital Devil Story anime was pretty good but also fairly standard for the period.
Kaneko just does a different kind of art, which mostly isn't done because it's highly intensive (expensive)
You have to appreciate the subtleties of the anime if you're going to appreciate it. If anything, Kaneko totally lacks sudtlety. I thought Persona was brilliant, though obviously in a different vein. His SMTI&II stuff was very solid. But I think DS/SH were too ambitious. And from there he just spiraled into a total obliviousness. My guess is somewhere along the line an artist's ego gives out, and if no one is there to set them straight, they just become unable to critique/doubt their own impulses... and ultimately their art suffers.
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Logged yksehtniycul has 2094 Posts (+0/-0 Karma) |
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| DevilRy
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Being the most important can't be seen in the eyes |
I didn't say the production values were amazing, though games are released every day with much worse art (though perhaps more polished)
That's for sure.
Thematically however, I think I prefer some straight "Eroguro" (think like the anime) to all the kid friendly in tone but with the odd subversively messed up themes interjected here in there. I love all the balls to the wall evil shit and people dying. That's life, when demons invade people are gonna die, like war. It should be more sexual as well I think. I'm fine with all the power-rangers and after-school teen specials, but give me at least one straight up series at least
To each their own I suppose. As far as anime and manga go... I have to admit that I kind of hate the homogeneity of the art-form. I tend to only respect the ones that either show technical proficiency in some way or other, are just so original that they break the traditional molds, or, barring either of these, can be appreciated for sheer camp value. There's plenty of straight-up eroguro stuff out there... I just don't think Megaten was intended as such.
I think you miss understand the PC-98 library. Giten is from those pictures extremely tame for a PC-98 title and the PC-98 audience. I don't think it's any more distasteful than a sex scene in an R rated film.
It didn't say it was disturbing, just distasteful. It struck me as less art and more as a deposit in some weird, Japanese guy's spank bank. It's one thing to show the horror of a demon invasion, even throw some sexual shit in there... But when you make it some big-boobed, bug-eyed bimbo being essentially slaughtered and raped... It's just too pre-teen Ted Bundy to me.
Kaneko just does a different kind of art, which mostly isn't done because it's highly intensive (expensive)
You have to appreciate the subtleties of the anime if you're going to appreciate it. If anything, Kaneko totally lacks sudtlety. I thought Persona was brilliant, though obviously in a different vein. His SMTI&II stuff was very solid. But I think DS/SH were too ambitious. And from there he just spiraled into a total obliviousness. My guess is somewhere along the line an artist's ego gives out, and if no one is there to set them straight, they just become unable to critique/doubt their own impulses... and ultimately their art suffers.
I'm not exactly sure what you mean by 'subtle.' I'm pretty sure we've covered this ground before - I feel essentially the opposite. He's only gotten better since the early Shin Megaten days. I didn't think he was ambitious enough. Now there's an almost draftsman's quality to what he does. Everything is crisp and clean and, most importantly, not colored with markers.
« Last Edit: September 29, 2008, 03:36:03 AM by DevilRy »
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Logged DevilRy has 435 Posts (+23/-0 Karma) |
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| yksehtniycul
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don't play with me 'cause you're playing with fire |
I mean the subtlety of fine taste. And clearly Megaten was intended to be Eroguro! Or else what do mean by "intended", god intended? Obviously Aya Nishitani intended otherwise, and the anime did a good job with it, and even Megaten2 stuck to these roots I think. So who intended what? Obviously Atlus never intended Megaten to be straight up dark/truly satanic in tone, or that's how it would've ended up. Now it's just kiddy fodder more or less.
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Logged yksehtniycul has 2094 Posts (+0/-0 Karma) |
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| DevilRy
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Being the most important can't be seen in the eyes |
Kaneko is about as close to 'fine taste' as you're going to find in the video game/anime industry as far as I'm concerned. I don't really think that Atlus was really that concerned with upholding the (for lack of a better word) integrity of the novel, as Shin Megami Tensei is clearly its own beast. I'm pretty sure Aya Nishitani helped write (or actually wrote) the storyline for the Digital Devil Sagas.
Megaten has almost universally been geared towards teenagers since the first game. There are far fewer games in the series with adult protagonists than adolescent ones, and the adults are usually barely over 20. Some Megaten games are darker/more Satanic than others, but I don't think the presence of eroguro elements would make them any more so. The whole concept of eroguro always seemed to me as kind of pathetic. It's one thing to put sex and brutality together, it's entirely another to inject stereotypical ideals of women into the mix - "I'll never be able to get this ideal so I'll just rape and dismember them with my mind," is generally the statement made by eroguro. I mean, when you say Megaten should be 'eroguro' you could just mean you want more sex and brutality in your Megaten games, which is fine, and to a certain extent I agree with you, but consider why you never see chubby women or men (on the recieving end, so to speak) in that kind of art.
« Last Edit: September 29, 2008, 05:00:26 PM by DevilRy »
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Logged DevilRy has 435 Posts (+23/-0 Karma) |
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| yksehtniycul
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don't play with me 'cause you're playing with fire |
I don't know what your hangup with this Eroguro business is. But take the anime.... Loki "virtually" rapes Ohara (though she seems to be enjoying herself) and proceeds to brutally consume (phagocytosis) an entire classroom of brain washed zombie kids. If there is a distinction in your mind there between that and Eruguro it must be pretty nuanced. At any rate, I wish Atlus would make a game with heavier darker themes like that. Not to mention the complex characters, much like the Izanami/gi mythology itself.
And I don't consider Kaneko's far out designs subtle... subtlety in taste is a kind of minimalism or efficiency... it's tweaking a subject until it's just right. Kaneko obviously just shoots his wad and proceeds to the next glaring hodgepodge on paper. If that's what you like, more for you, but at least recognize what it is (I'm primarily referring to his characters and game specific boss Devils with contempt)
« Last Edit: September 29, 2008, 07:54:25 PM by yksehtniycul »
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Logged yksehtniycul has 2094 Posts (+0/-0 Karma) |
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| DevilRy
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Being the most important can't be seen in the eyes |
There's no nuance at all. Eroguro is essentially porn with with grotesque elements. That scene in the anime was brutal yes, but it hardly typifies the entire picture. I think it's important to note however that this scene plays out the typical male rape fantasy wherein the victim is depicted to enjoy being raped. I'm not offended, I just think the idea is adolescent in the extreme, playing off of male insecurity and nascent and unfulfilled sexual desires, and ultimately makes the whole scene seem rather amateurish and sexually retarded, not to mention disturbing to women who are far less likely to entertain this type of fantasy. Regardless, I think that Atlus should make a "darker" game as well, but I don't think injecting elements of eroguro would come anywhere close to achieving this (and would be anything but subtle).
Minimalism can be good sometimes but I don't think it fits with Megami Tensei, a pointedly weird and complex game series. I never said that his designs weren't "out there," but I do argue it fits better with Megaten. I don't think his method quite plays out as you describe either, but hey, you're entitled to draw your own conclusions, however based in conjecture they may be.
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Logged DevilRy has 435 Posts (+23/-0 Karma) |
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| yksehtniycul
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don't play with me 'cause you're playing with fire |
You can't psychoanalyze/sanitize everything this way... I see no reason the scenario in the anime is improbable for what it depicts. Sometimes people get raped... though you could argue she was more mind raped than anything else. If Loki had totally mind raped a dude, you'd be all systems go about it. And don't try to pretend you wouldn't 
The only difference as far as Giten is concerned is the level of maturity I think. Besides the fact many early Eroguro films are considered some of the best of Japanese cinematography. Eroguro themes involving people are pretty disturbing. Involving demons, it's kind of run of the mill, involving people involved in occult practices, it's pretty standard satanic themed stuff.
And I'll say so knowing pretty well your stomach for gore is probably 10x my own 
Besides, I'm not even positive pornography mixed in with fantasy remains pornography. If you make that argument the concept of fantasy itself becomes almost a kind of pornography.
That said, I rather enjoyed the freedom of the Giten sprites. If anyone knows the link to that page with all the sprites please share -- though now that I think about it, I seem to recall it being lost to the internet's event-horizon at some point.
« Last Edit: September 29, 2008, 10:02:49 PM by yksehtniycul »
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Logged yksehtniycul has 2094 Posts (+0/-0 Karma) |
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| DevilRy
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Being the most important can't be seen in the eyes |
I didn't say it was improbable, just frustratingly adolescent... I'm also not exactly psychoanalyzing it so much as making an observation. I just don't think rape makes for a particularly compelling conceit no matter what the sex of the victim.
I'd also argue this is precisely the kind of thing that makes it less mature than the other games in the Megami Tensei line. I mean it would be one thing if the victim was portrayed as anything but a big titted bimbo, but as it is... It just screams juvenile to me. 
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Logged DevilRy has 435 Posts (+23/-0 Karma) |
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| yksehtniycul
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don't play with me 'cause you're playing with fire |
I don't think the anime is "juvenile"... if anything Atlus Megaten is very juvenile. I don't think Giten is juvenile either... though it is pretty immature (and not in the same way games are stamped "mature")
Not actually playing Giten very far, and I'd guess that is every nude scene in the game (which is very few by PC98 standards) I can't really comment. But I get the impression if the art style was a little more sophisticated we wouldn't be having this discussion. The one screen with the chick sprawled out on the bed is kinda gratuitous (or more so low brow) in and of itself. And it is hard to imagine a scenario where it would not be. The other screens however since they're animated probably represent a significant scene from the game, and I don't think you can necessarily discredit them so easy without actually having played the title itself.
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Logged yksehtniycul has 2094 Posts (+0/-0 Karma) |
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| DevilRy
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Being the most important can't be seen in the eyes |
Well, what I've seen of the game has led me to believe as much. By the same token though, you shouldn't really be making the same judgments about other Megaten games without playing them: most notably Nocturne and Digital Devil Saga. There are actually some significantly gory scenes in both and neither come off as juvenile on a whole. Late teens/and people in their 20s perhaps, but we both fit into that demographic. I think they are pointedly more geared to attract a female audience however, which, considering the prevailing attitudes of Japanese people and the expectation of women in Japanese society to be obnoxiously cute, it doesn't surprise me that they would have juvenile elements to them. The Jack Brothers are a pretty perfect example of this kind of thing.
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Logged DevilRy has 435 Posts (+23/-0 Karma) |
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| yksehtniycul
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don't play with me 'cause you're playing with fire |
See, you were just making a blanket assumption about a game in it's entirety. Also I think you take "fan service" too far. Japanese don't think as much about throwing in an obligatory tit scene here or there. It's not such a puritanical society.
I just criticize aspects of Megaten titles which are obvious without playing them. Mostly the artwork just tends to put me off. Too much of Kaneko's contemporary stuff tends to illicit first a laugh and then a cringe from me. I can't much help that. Throw enough of his pieces like this into a title and give them prominent roles, and I can pretty easily conclude I won't enjoy looking at the game... therefore I don't play it. You won't hear me saying these are bad games or categorizing them in any unfair way. I blame Kaneko, because the games for the most part seem like they'd be ok if the artwork just wasn't too much. I don't think Kaneko is a bad artist, nor is he necessarily less than any other production artist being given work in Japan for that matter, but I think he could do a lot better if he was a more serious artist in the academic sense. But then these games aren't being sold to academics are they 
PS: As long as the target demographic is children and not scarring their precious little minds... I say that is juvenile (versus adult)
« Last Edit: September 29, 2008, 11:53:21 PM by yksehtniycul »
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Logged yksehtniycul has 2094 Posts (+0/-0 Karma) |
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| DevilRy
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Being the most important can't be seen in the eyes |
What?  No I'm not... I did exactly what you're claiming to do: criticizing aspects of a game without playing it.
I'm not objecting to tit scenes either, I just think they're trite, overdone, and used to appeal to perpetually virgin school boys. I.E. juvenile.
I just think your objections to Kaneko's recent work are just kind of vague and related more to your own personal taste rather than an objective 'fine taste.' It's kind of weird that your attitude generally parallels my own regarding that Soejima-guy's work on the recent Persona games though. I'm not calling Giten a bad game either, I just don't have any desire to play it based on what I've seen. The content is immature and the artwork is ugly to boot.
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Logged DevilRy has 435 Posts (+23/-0 Karma) |
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